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Post subject: How to get a heavier sound with getting muddy?
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:07 pm
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I play a new 2009 American Fender Jazz bass in an original blues rock trio with a drummer and guitarist. The Jazz bass is wonderful and sounds really great through my Galleon Krueger 1001RB head and GK 4X10 cab.

Here is my question. Playing straight through the GK rig using mostly the neck pickup (leaning more towards a P-bass tone) gives me a nice warm low end that will nicely cut through the mix in a live setting. However, we have several much heavier tunes that I would like to make use of a combination of a Electro-Harmonix Big Bass Muff and an Aguilar Octave pedal to give me a much heavier sound. When I add too much fuzz or mix too much of the lower octave, my sound gets so muddy that there is no clarity left in a live setting. Any suggestions on how to sound heavier with these specific tools at my disposal??

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:17 pm
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You can try adding a compressor in front of the effects pedals. This will help even everything out before it gets to the effects, but I'm pretty sure it will not totally cure this muddiness of low notes. Could help but I think you'd be better off adding a 15 or 18 inch cab.

What is probably happening that that the harmonics generated by the octave pedal are overwhelming the power amp as it tries to simultaneously amplify multiple frequencies, some of which are not being passed by the speaker cabinet. The end result of that is diminished apparent volume as the harmonics take power away from the fundamental tone.

Don't overdo the octave effect. I run into this same thing with an Aphex Bass Xciter. The psycho-acoustic harmonics the Aphex processor generates suck power from the main tone unless you have it set just right. The settings that work best for direct recording are the absolute worst ones to use live and vice-versa! What sounds great in direct recording sounds awful live through a bass amp because of the coloration of bass power amps and the limited frequency response of most bass cabs. Settings on the Aphex that sound awesome live sound too midrange heavy when going direct in for recording.

Your amp gets muddy because the octave pedal is producing frequencies so low that your cabinet can't pass them therefore these ultra low frequencies are not reproduced audibly, meanwhile the amp is still devoting a substantial amount of power to generating them anyway which robs power from the fundamental tone and reduces apparent loudness. Ultra low frequencies take a lot of power to generate. Result? Mud.

You might want to try adding a 15 or even 18 inch speaker to the stack. This might help the muddiness since more of the ultra low harmonics would be audible or at least felt. Another option is to accept the limitations and stay away from the troublesome low notes when using the octave pedal.


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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:09 am
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Hi Ba,
You didn't say anything about how you are setting the EQ on the amp and that will have a big effect on your tendency to get muddy tone.
I would rec. that you go with a flat EQ to help diagnose your tone.

I can see that any use of an octave pedal is going to make clean tone a real feat if you play too low on the bass.

Good luck


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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:37 am
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Try lowering your pickups. You'll be able to drive your amp harder without the mud. AND you'll get some added sustain.

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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:37 am
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CAFeathers wrote:
Try lowering your pickups. You'll be able to drive your amp harder without the mud. AND you'll get some added sustain.


+1

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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:31 pm
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Another +1 on lowering your pickups; an alternative would be to have them professionally unwound to a lower impedence, but that's costly and not likely to be a cost-effective alternative on those pickups.

But to me, the biggest problem here is your use of a distortion pedal. I've been playing live for 30 years, and I've never found a distortion pedal that does not kill the bass in the mix. It's unfortunate, but I only use distortion in the studio; live, it's a mess for bass, unless you can get it directly from your rig, which you really can't with a GK.

Don't get me wrong; I love GK - I use a 700RB-II with a neo 2x12 GK cab and it sounds fantastic - clean is mostly all you get. But, and this is important - to drive the GK properly in terms of tone, make sure you have the bi-amp boost volume up around 2-3 o'clock, and the bi-amp woofer volume at 12 o'clock or more. The input volume, over by where you plug in, should be used as a master volume; for most gigs, I can't put that past about 9 o'clock without blowing the windows out.

The bi-amp boost is where you get the most growl, and, at least in my experience, translates to a fair bit of presence in the mix.

Lastly, in the Voicing Filters section of the head, unless you really like using the contour, keep that down to zero, as it kills mids which is where tone is at (to me; but mids can be a bit muddy if overused). Also, the presence dial will kill your presence if you turn it all the way up. Go no higher than about 80% on the presence, if you use it at all.

Just my opinion - YRMV.


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:06 pm
I didn't like the muddy sound I was getting out of a Marshall MBC410 cab. Changed to a Mesa PowerHouse 2x12. Like the sound the two 12's do.


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:36 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
You can try adding a compressor in front of the effects pedals. This will help even everything out before it gets to the effects, but I'm pretty sure it will not totally cure this muddiness of low notes. Could help but I think you'd be better off adding a 15 or 18 inch cab.

What is probably happening that that the harmonics generated by the octave pedal are overwhelming the power amp as it tries to simultaneously amplify multiple frequencies, some of which are not being passed by the speaker cabinet. The end result of that is diminished apparent volume as the harmonics take power away from the fundamental tone.

Don't overdo the octave effect. I run into this same thing with an Aphex Bass Xciter. The psycho-acoustic harmonics the Aphex processor generates suck power from the main tone unless you have it set just right. The settings that work best for direct recording are the absolute worst ones to use live and vice-versa! What sounds great in direct recording sounds awful live through a bass amp because of the coloration of bass power amps and the limited frequency response of most bass cabs. Settings on the Aphex that sound awesome live sound too midrange heavy when going direct in for recording.

Your amp gets muddy because the octave pedal is producing frequencies so low that your cabinet can't pass them therefore these ultra low frequencies are not reproduced audibly, meanwhile the amp is still devoting a substantial amount of power to generating them anyway which robs power from the fundamental tone and reduces apparent loudness. Ultra low frequencies take a lot of power to generate. Result? Mud.

You might want to try adding a 15 or even 18 inch speaker to the stack. This might help the muddiness since more of the ultra low harmonics would be audible or at least felt. Another option is to accept the limitations and stay away from the troublesome low notes when using the octave pedal.


im a proud new owner of the fender jazz bass and with your advice its sounding quite good :D thanks!


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Post subject:
Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:11 am
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The stock MIA standard pickups have a strong low-mid presence, which is probably contributing to the muddiness. Try backing down the low-mids on the amp and compensating a little in the lows and high-mids.


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Post subject: response
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:37 pm
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Two quick opinions on this:

1) I would not mess with the pickup height. These are electronic components that have been designed to work in a particular scenario. I can tell you from experience that it's best to have leave them at the factory setting if you don't want to screw up your sound all the time.

2) Before investing in some more equipment, I would encourage you to play with the adjustments on your amp, and make sure that you understand what the amp is capable of. I also play a jazz and I've never felt the need to load on a bunch of electronics to get a lighter or heavier sound (special effects notwithstanding). You've got two pickups, and two hands and that is quite a toolkit (especially if you play finger-style) for producing a variety of tones.


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Post subject: Re: response
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:20 pm
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fretless5 wrote:
Two quick opinions on this:

1) I would not mess with the pickup height. These are electronic components that have been designed to work in a particular scenario. I can tell you from experience that it's best to have leave them at the factory setting if you don't want to screw up your sound all the time.

2) Before investing in some more equipment, I would encourage you to play with the adjustments on your amp, and make sure that you understand what the amp is capable of. I also play a jazz and I've never felt the need to load on a bunch of electronics to get a lighter or heavier sound (special effects notwithstanding). You've got two pickups, and two hands and that is quite a toolkit (especially if you play finger-style) for producing a variety of tones.


How is adjusting pickup height screwing up your sound all the time?

Adjusting your pickup height helps to dial in the tone you want. Some pickups have adjustable pole pieces for even more fine tuning.

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Post subject: Re: response
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:08 pm
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CAFeathers wrote:
fretless5 wrote:
Two quick opinions on this:

1) I would not mess with the pickup height. These are electronic components that have been designed to work in a particular scenario. I can tell you from experience that it's best to have leave them at the factory setting if you don't want to screw up your sound all the time.

2) Before investing in some more equipment, I would encourage you to play with the adjustments on your amp, and make sure that you understand what the amp is capable of. I also play a jazz and I've never felt the need to load on a bunch of electronics to get a lighter or heavier sound (special effects notwithstanding). You've got two pickups, and two hands and that is quite a toolkit (especially if you play finger-style) for producing a variety of tones.

How is adjusting pickup height screwing up your sound all the time?

Adjusting your pickup height helps to dial in the tone you want. Some pickups have adjustable pole pieces for even more fine tuning.


The string is metallic, and the pickup is magnetic. There is a sweet spot where you get the best sonic result based on the relative distance between the two. Any other type of adjustment to this relation represents a compromise in sound as you are basically taking the instrument from an optimal condition to something suboptimal. You wouldn't wear shoes two sizes too big just so you can wiggle your toes. By the same token, you shouldn't adjust your pickups for a result that only benefits 10% of your sound, causing the other 90% to suffer.

The magnetic quality of a pickup effects only volume, not tone. Tonal differences (other than that produced by your own hands) are a result of string choice, type of wood in the instrument, and electronic processing (i.e., the pickups and your amp).


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Post subject: Re: response
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:14 pm
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fretless5 wrote:
CAFeathers wrote:
fretless5 wrote:
Two quick opinions on this:

1) I would not mess with the pickup height. These are electronic components that have been designed to work in a particular scenario. I can tell you from experience that it's best to have leave them at the factory setting if you don't want to screw up your sound all the time.

2) Before investing in some more equipment, I would encourage you to play with the adjustments on your amp, and make sure that you understand what the amp is capable of. I also play a jazz and I've never felt the need to load on a bunch of electronics to get a lighter or heavier sound (special effects notwithstanding). You've got two pickups, and two hands and that is quite a toolkit (especially if you play finger-style) for producing a variety of tones.

How is adjusting pickup height screwing up your sound all the time?

Adjusting your pickup height helps to dial in the tone you want. Some pickups have adjustable pole pieces for even more fine tuning.


The string is metallic, and the pickup is magnetic. There is a sweet spot where you get the best sonic result based on the relative distance between the two. Any other type of adjustment to this relation represents a compromise in sound as you are basically taking the instrument from an optimal condition to something suboptimal. You wouldn't wear shoes two sizes too big just so you can wiggle your toes. By the same token, you shouldn't adjust your pickups for a result that only benefits 10% of your sound, causing the other 90% to suffer.

The magnetic quality of a pickup effects only volume, not tone. Tonal differences (other than that produced by your own hands) are a result of string choice, type of wood in the instrument, and electronic processing (i.e., the pickups and your amp).


Where does this info come from?

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Post subject: Re: response
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:36 pm
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CAFeathers wrote:
fretless5 wrote:
CAFeathers wrote:
fretless5 wrote:
Two quick opinions on this:

1) I would not mess with the pickup height. These are electronic components that have been designed to work in a particular scenario. I can tell you from experience that it's best to have leave them at the factory setting if you don't want to screw up your sound all the time.

2) Before investing in some more equipment, I would encourage you to play with the adjustments on your amp, and make sure that you understand what the amp is capable of. I also play a jazz and I've never felt the need to load on a bunch of electronics to get a lighter or heavier sound (special effects notwithstanding). You've got two pickups, and two hands and that is quite a toolkit (especially if you play finger-style) for producing a variety of tones.

How is adjusting pickup height screwing up your sound all the time?

Adjusting your pickup height helps to dial in the tone you want. Some pickups have adjustable pole pieces for even more fine tuning.


The string is metallic, and the pickup is magnetic. There is a sweet spot where you get the best sonic result based on the relative distance between the two. Any other type of adjustment to this relation represents a compromise in sound as you are basically taking the instrument from an optimal condition to something suboptimal. You wouldn't wear shoes two sizes too big just so you can wiggle your toes. By the same token, you shouldn't adjust your pickups for a result that only benefits 10% of your sound, causing the other 90% to suffer.

The magnetic quality of a pickup effects only volume, not tone. Tonal differences (other than that produced by your own hands) are a result of string choice, type of wood in the instrument, and electronic processing (i.e., the pickups and your amp).


Where does this info come from?


If you info to the contrary, please post it as that is one of the benefits of the forum. I believe the comments I made concerning wood and electronics to be self-evident. As for the relationship between the string and pole pieces, I can tell you that on my own instrument I was having a problem on the lower strings producing undesirable overtones to the point that it was hard to tune without using a tuner. At the time I contributed to the strings I had on the bass. When I was having some work done on the bass, the tech told me that what I was hearing was due to the pickup height in relation to the string. After he adjusted the pickups back to factory settings the bass sounded great. The problem, to paraphrase what he told me, is that you want the string close enough to have its vibrations picked up by the pickups, but not so close that the magnetic field of the pickup influences the vibration of the string (which is basically the scenario you avoid with optical pickups like the Lightwave). And it follows that you don't want the pickup so far away that it doesn't capture the full character of the sound.


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Post subject: Re: response
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:41 pm
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fretless5 wrote:
CAFeathers wrote:
fretless5 wrote:
CAFeathers wrote:
fretless5 wrote:
Two quick opinions on this:

1) I would not mess with the pickup height. These are electronic components that have been designed to work in a particular scenario. I can tell you from experience that it's best to have leave them at the factory setting if you don't want to screw up your sound all the time.

2) Before investing in some more equipment, I would encourage you to play with the adjustments on your amp, and make sure that you understand what the amp is capable of. I also play a jazz and I've never felt the need to load on a bunch of electronics to get a lighter or heavier sound (special effects notwithstanding). You've got two pickups, and two hands and that is quite a toolkit (especially if you play finger-style) for producing a variety of tones.

How is adjusting pickup height screwing up your sound all the time?

Adjusting your pickup height helps to dial in the tone you want. Some pickups have adjustable pole pieces for even more fine tuning.


The string is metallic, and the pickup is magnetic. There is a sweet spot where you get the best sonic result based on the relative distance between the two. Any other type of adjustment to this relation represents a compromise in sound as you are basically taking the instrument from an optimal condition to something suboptimal. You wouldn't wear shoes two sizes too big just so you can wiggle your toes. By the same token, you shouldn't adjust your pickups for a result that only benefits 10% of your sound, causing the other 90% to suffer.

The magnetic quality of a pickup effects only volume, not tone. Tonal differences (other than that produced by your own hands) are a result of string choice, type of wood in the instrument, and electronic processing (i.e., the pickups and your amp).


Where does this info come from?


If you info to the contrary, please post it as that is one of the benefits of the forum. I believe the comments I made concerning wood and electronics to be self-evident. As for the relationship between the string and pole pieces, I can tell you that on my own instrument I was having a problem on the lower strings producing undesirable overtones to the point that it was hard to tune without using a tuner. At the time I contributed to the strings I had on the bass. When I was having some work done on the bass, the tech told me that what I was hearing was due to the pickup height in relation to the string. After he adjusted the pickups back to factory settings the bass sounded great. The problem, to paraphrase what he told me, is that you want the string close enough to have its vibrations picked up by the pickups, but not so close that the magnetic field of the pickup influences the vibration of the string (which is basically the scenario you avoid with optical pickups like the Lightwave). And it follows that you don't want the pickup so far away that it doesn't capture the full character of the sound.


Do a search for my post on the "Nickel Method" which was told to me by Bill Lawrence.

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