It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:27 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
Post subject: Rotosound blues
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:45 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:13 pm
Posts: 7
Hello guys,

I recently purchased a Rotosound RS 66LD Swing Bass set for my American standard Jazz bass only to discover that the E string was too long and that the red silk at the ball end was actually riding on the bridge saddle. I wrote Rotosound and we have been trying for about two months to resolve this problem but have not reached a solution as of yet.

I know there are many of you who use Rotosounds but I've never heard anybody complaining about this problem, so am I just going crazy here? The rep told me that the Rotosound engineers have been scratching their heads over my specific problem for the past two months and can't figure this out. I even photographed the situation but they are still at a loss.

I like to mount my strings through the bridge as opposed to through the body. If I were to try and mount through the body, the E string is too fat to make the sharp bend to go over the bridge.

So, my question is whether anybody else knows about this problem and what did you do to solve it?

Thank You, Rev. T


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:01 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:33 am
Posts: 4583
Location: North of Pittsburgh
Anything's possible, Quality Assurance must have been on a break. With every manufacturer taking steps to increase productivity and cut costs, they probably were lax in the process.

I use Rotos and have never had that problem, flats on my Precision and RS66LD's on my VM Jazz.

Hope you find a solution, let us know.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:22 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:13 pm
Posts: 7
"I use Rotos and have never had that problem, flats on my Precision and RS66LD's on my VM Jazz."



Well, I have tried several different sets from different manufacturers and the E is also too long with those other sets. When I say "too long", I mean that the fat part of the string would get wrapped around the tuning post instead of the skinny part. The other three strings fit fine, it's just the E that's too long. I'm even starting to think that something is wrong with the instrument itself, that maybe the bridge is too far forward or something.

I'm not familiar with the VM Jazz, do you mount the strings through the bridge or through the body?


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:00 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:12 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Albemarle, NC
Welcome to the forum Reverend.

Were there any other letters after RS66? If "EL" was after RS66 those would be extra long.

If not, that is strange. Maybe an EL string got switched into the set somehow. Set them up body through and see if that works. They should make the bend just fine. They will sound better body through anyway. The only strings I would want to top load are flatwounds like the Labella 760M set or the GHS 3050 Regulars. Otherwise body through is fine for roundwounds.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:09 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:13 pm
Posts: 7
fjbass wrote:
I agree with brotherdave. Through the body for sound, and maybe to correct your problem. Or go with a string set with a tapered E string.


Well, I thank both of you guys for replying. I am aware that mounting through the body will probably solve the length problem, but I don't mount them that way because you need more string tension to come up to pitch. The least tension you would need would be if you just suspend the string between two solid points. If you then put a bend in the string, lets say by going over the bridge, then that adds more tension to the string and makes it stiffer, so you would have to lower the pitch to compensate for that. Then by going over the nut you add more tension and then the radical bending that would take place by mounting through the body will add even more tension. In my opinion, the action on my ASJB was pretty stiff with the Fender strings that came on it. By top loading, I save myself that one extra string bend through the body so that the strings feel loser and easier to play.

All the vintage Fenders are top loading. I don't know why they switched to TTB, but, to me, the vintage instruments sound and play the best.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:27 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:12 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Albemarle, NC
Reverend T wrote:
fjbass wrote:
I agree with brotherdave. Through the body for sound, and maybe to correct your problem. Or go with a string set with a tapered E string.


...I am aware that mounting through the body will probably solve the length problem, but I don't mount them that way because you need more string tension to come up to pitch.....

...All the vintage Fenders are top loading. I don't know why they switched to TTB...


String tension is the same either way. The tension required to raise the string to pitch does not increase in body-through stringing because the pitch is still set based on the tension between the nut and bridge saddle, not between the nut and ferrule. This tension does not change even though the string itself is longer because the scale length remains the same. Only if you increased the scale length would you need more tension to come to pitch.

They switched to the body-through option because it sounds better. It is more time consuming to make them this way too and that is part of what you are paying for when you purchase a Fender USA made bass.

Some vintage Fenders were indeed body-through, including the original Fender bass. The real question should not be, "Why did they start body through stringing," but rather, "Why did they abandon body-through stringing?" The answer to the real question is because the then stock Labella 760M flatwound strings were not able to make the body-through bend at the saddles without the outer wrap cracking open resulting in rapid string failure by breaking or by sudden deadening. This issue has been overcome in all Labella flat sets, except for the 760M which they still make the exact same way for nostalgia sake.

Even after Fender started using V.C. Squier Company roundwound strings in the early 60's they left them all top loading because it required less labor.

The Fender Telecaster Bass brought body-through stringing back to the Fender line and the popularity of the feature grew from there.

There is no problem with the large part of the string wrapping around a little of the "E" tuner post either. However the silk being on the north side of the bridge saddle is a real problem. Body-through stringing may cure even the minor issues you are having and will not increase string tension.

Have you measured your scale length to check the bridge placement?


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:58 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:13 pm
Posts: 7
"String tension is the same either way. The tension required to raise the string to pitch does not increase in body-through stringing because the pitch is still set based on the tension between the nut and bridge saddle, not between the nut and ferrule. This tension does not change even though the string itself is longer because the scale length remains the same. Only if you increased the scale length would you need more tension to come to pitch.

Have you measured your scale length to check the bridge placement?"


I have to respectfully disagree with you here, Dave. The string tension is measured from anchor point to anchor point which is from the tuning post to where the string is anchored in the body or on the bridge. Any bend you introduce between these two points has the effect of increasing the string tension and thereby raising the pitch. A string with bends in it is tighter, and therefore higher in pitch, then the same string which is simply suspended between two points - provided it's the same make and model and all that good stuff. Another point is that introducing bends into the string has the effect of shortening the string which also makes it tighter/stiffer.

As far as TTB mounting being an old custom, all I can say is that in my forty or so years of being a musician, I've never seen it.

When you say though that it's done for sound reasons, what exactly do you mean by that - how exactly does it change the sound? As far as I know, the Badass bridge is still top loaded and those basses sound fine to me. Plus, I used to own a Geddy Lee Jazz which, as you know, comes with a Baddass. Now, I DID trade it in for my AS, and it WAS because I didn't like the sound, BUT, it was because it sounded too thin and not because of the bridge.

Anyway, yes, Rotosound did ask me to take a number of measurements, which I did, but apparently everything was OK because they never said anything. By the way, from the nut to the bridge saddle (E string) on my bass is exactly 87 centimeters which is 34.25 inches - does this sound about right to you?

Also, do you, or anybody else know of a good quality roundwound string that will fit (top load) the Jazz (besides Fender strings)?


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:32 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:56 am
Posts: 8
Reverend T wrote:
"String tension is the same either way. The tension required to raise the string to pitch does not increase in body-through stringing because the pitch is still set based on the tension between the nut and bridge saddle, not between the nut and ferrule. This tension does not change even though the string itself is longer because the scale length remains the same. Only if you increased the scale length would you need more tension to come to pitch.

Have you measured your scale length to check the bridge placement?"


I have to respectfully disagree with you here, Dave. The string tension is measured from anchor point to anchor point which is from the tuning post to where the string is anchored in the body or on the bridge. Any bend you introduce between these two points has the effect of increasing the string tension and thereby raising the pitch. A string with bends in it is tighter, and therefore higher in pitch, then the same string which is simply suspended between two points - provided it's the same make and model and all that good stuff. Another point is that introducing bends into the string has the effect of shortening the string which also makes it tighter/stiffer.



Also, do you, or anybody else know of a good quality roundwound string that will fit (top load) the Jazz (besides Fender strings)?


I fail to understand the logic of your string tension argument. It is my understanding that tension is determined by scale length, string gauge, and desired pitch. The length of string beyond the nut and saddle shouldn't, in my understanding, affect the tension. If you go to the Thomastik-Infeld website, they list exact string tensions for different products tuned to A = 440hz. How could they arrive at these figures if the differing variables you ascribe to part of the equation were pertinent?

The reasoning behind the String Through design is that it is a greater transfer of energy to the wood, with the effects of tightening up the low end and increasing sustain. I have been using it on my '96 Am Std Jazz without any difficulty on the E-string. In fact, I have switched to tuning the bass D-G-C-F with heavy gauge strings to keep the tension sufficient with great success and will not be going back to regular tuning. So I recommend you try it at least with the string in question, it will solve all the problems you have been having.

I will make two string recommendations. GHS Boomers have a great classic rock tone and are fantastic strings. Real Cadillacs of strings. But if you want the Rolls-Royce of strings, invest in a set of Thomastik-Infelds. They will last for at least 5 years of heavy use. They have lower tension than you may have found in the past and are mainly suited to lighter playing styles, but what great tone and feel. I have a set on my MiM Fretless Jazz and they make the bass sing like no other. I am contemplating getting another Jazz bass just to run a set of flats for bar gigs where the fretless isn't suitable.

_________________
Image


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:00 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:12 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Albemarle, NC
Reverend T wrote:
"

I have to respectfully disagree with you here, Dave. The string tension is measured from anchor point to anchor point which is from the tuning post to where the string is anchored in the body or on the bridge. Any bend you introduce between these two points has the effect of increasing the string tension and thereby raising the pitch. A string with bends in it is tighter, and therefore higher in pitch, then the same string which is simply suspended between two points - provided it's the same make and model and all that good stuff. Another point is that introducing bends into the string has the effect of shortening the string which also makes it tighter/stiffer.

As far as TTB mounting being an old custom, all I can say is that in my forty or so years of being a musician, I've never seen it.

When you say though that it's done for sound reasons, what exactly do you mean by that - how exactly does it change the sound? As far as I know, the Badass bridge is still top loaded and those basses sound fine to me. Plus, I used to own a Geddy Lee Jazz which, as you know, comes with a Baddass. Now, I DID trade it in for my AS, and it WAS because I didn't like the sound, BUT, it was because it sounded too thin and not because of the bridge.

Anyway, yes, Rotosound did ask me to take a number of measurements, which I did, but apparently everything was OK because they never said anything. By the way, from the nut to the bridge saddle (E string) on my bass is exactly 87 centimeters which is 34.25 inches - does this sound about right to you?

Also, do you, or anybody else know of a good quality roundwound string that will fit (top load) the Jazz (besides Fender strings)?


Your measurement sounds right.

If tension is higher on the same scale then the string would play a higher pitched note. Only if the scale increased would more tension be required to get to the same pitch than would be required on a shorter scale bass.

The scale is the same, therefore so is the tension required to get to pitch. If the scale was longer, 35 or 36 inches for example, then yes you would need higher tension to reach the same pitch. This is why players who play drop tunings often prefer an extra long scale.

If there was no nut and no bridge saddle and you were measuring tension from Point A (tuner post) to Point B (string anchor point) then yes the longer the string the higher the tension required to get to a certain pitch. However that is why someone invented nuts and bridge saddles. They equalize whatever is going on north of the nut and south of the bridge saddle so long as the scale remains the same.

For example a bass string of the same design could be 40 inches long or even 40 feet long and the same tension would be required between the nut and the bridge to modulate a particular pitch so long as the scale remained constant at 34 inches.

My number one bass is always set up with Thomastik-Infeld EB344 PowerBass roundwounds. I also happened to have two used sets of these same strings to play around with. So I did an experiment! (Just call me, "Mr. Wizard Jr" folks!)

For this experiment bass bass #1 is a body-through Fender Precision 51 RI with the stock neck, stock 4-inline tuners and Leo Quan BA III bridge which usually is loaded with GHS 3050 Regular Precision Flats but for the experiment I loaded it with EB344's and made intonation adjustments. (This is not my number 1 gigging bass, but bass #1 for this experiement.)

Bass #2 is a bridge-through/top-loading Ibanez with 2x2 tuners (2 tuners per side of headstock). This bass will have a much shorter string length on the "D" and "G" strings than bass #1 because of the 2x2 tuners. I put the other used set of EB344's on the Ibanez and intonated it. (They came off a 4 tuner in line '54 Frankenbass so I had to trim a good bit off the "D" and "G" strings for a good looking install.)

Next I tuned both 34 inch scale basses to pitch on the same Fender RT-1000 rack tuner.

Taking the body through stringing into account, all strings on the Bass #1's body-through setup are at least 2 inches longer and all have the bend. Add to this the fact that bass #1's "D" and "G" strings are significantly longer by approximately 3.5 and 5 inches respectively due to the 4-inline tuner design.

If your beliefs about total string length and bends determining tension instead of the scale were true, then my string tension would be higher on every string on #1 and should be even greater on the "D" and "G" string of #1 since on those two strings there is up to 5 extra inches of string length.

Result of experiment: Both basses feel to me that they have the exact same relaxed string tension, even on the "G" string. The tension on the EB344's is medium low, so any increase would be almost instantly apparent.

As for never seeing body through stringing before, the Fender Precision bass first generation design was body-through.

Body through stringing makes a very subtle tonal difference as a smidgen of secondary string vibration is transferred to the body making the bass sound a little more resonant. The only drawback to body-through stringing for me was that due to the bend I used to break some Labella 760M flatwound strings on my Telecaster Bass in the late 60's and early 70's. The Tele Bass had no top load option so I switched to different strings. (Rotosounds as I recall.) To this day I'm spooked about body through stringing of any flatwounds so I always top load flats.


Top
Profile
Post subject: string tension
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:27 am
Offline
Amateur
Amateur
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:24 pm
Posts: 175
I'm not a scientist so I had to think this one through as it raised an interesting question. I was reminded of the geometry axiom of the shortest distance between two points being a straight line. If you accept that, then a string that is mounted through the body must be at a lower tension to render the same note as one that is mounted through the bridge.

Look at it this way: if you stretched a rubber band between your thumb and index finger and plucked it, the only way you could get the same pitch if you added a "bridge" between your thumb and index finger would be to shorten the string length (i.e., move your thumb and index finger closer together), which effectively lessens the string tension overall.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: