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Post subject: Question about tone capacitors
Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:28 pm
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Hey all...
I'm about to convert my 3-knob Jazz to the Concentric pots from the '62 Jazz; The wiring diagram shows 2 capacitors: a .05uf and a .03uf.

I don't know exactly how the capacitors affect the tone, and I'm a curious guy, so I was wondering what would happen if I were to put on a different size cap (for example a .01uf or .047uf) in place of the .03uf?

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Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:56 am
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TriumphRider wrote:
...I was wondering what would happen if I were to put on a different size cap (for example a .01uf or .047uf) in place of the .03uf?


Generally speaking the lower the value the fewer highs get cut. Also, unless you use a "No-Load" pot with the bypass detent in it, the cap is always in the circuit to some degree even when you have the tone cranked wide open to treble. I've never seen a "NO LOAD" stacked pot so that isn't an option on a '62 stacked setup, but they might exist for all I know. I think that this loading issue is at least part of the reason the Mark Hoppus Jazz and the Timothy B. Schmidt Carvin models have just a volume control with no tone control or cap on them at all.

There is very little difference whatsoever between a 0.05 and a 0.047 cap. The 0.05 is pretty much obsolete. You can sometimes find vintage 0.05 ceramic caps on eBay. This difference is so small that the tolerance factor of 10% on many ceramic caps and 5% on Paper In Oil caps means that your 0.047 cap is actually within a range that is somewhere in the ballpark of, but not exactly, 0.047. The only way to know for sure what any cap reads is to put it on a capacitance meter. So two caps of the same stamped value can read quite differently.

For where a 0.03 is specified, I might try a 0.018 to pass a tad more upper mids, especially if you know you are going to be using flats. This along with 0.022 is a popular value for use in humbucker pickups. I don't think I'd try anything lower than 0.01.

The BEST TONE will be obtained from Paper In Oil (PIO) caps of the basic design of the Sprague Vitamin Q and other brands built to the same US military specifications. I've used Philco, Gudeman, Mullard, Mallory and Sprague brands. They are all pretty much the same. Stick to 100 to 200 volt sizes because as the voltage goes up they get physically larger and seem to load the circuit more.

Unfortunately PIO caps are no longer in production in the USA due environmental considerations. You can however still get Sprague USA made "Vitamin Q" type PIO caps sometimes. The Russian PIO caps are copies of the USA PIO caps and when the USA caps are extinct there should continue to be a supply of the Russian ones. The Russian military capacitors are actually preferred by some people but I've always used USA ones.

In my experience the difference is very subtle between PIO and the Mylar film Sprague 225P Orange Drops. However the difference is much more obvious between PIO and ceramic capacitors.

A ceramic cap is the very cheapest cap. Most guitar makers used them to hold down costs and because they were so compact. The very earliest Fender P-basses had paper in oil caps and then Fender switched to ceramic for a very long stretch and finally to today's poly film.

A final capacitor thing. If you are not going to use PIO caps for your electric bass project, I would suggest passing on the most commonly used Sprague 715P and 716P "Orange Drop" film caps. These are the ones most guitar parts sites sell! Instead try the Sprague 225P "Orange Drop" film caps. The 225P caps are slightly more "boxy" looking. They are harder to find, but you'll get cleaner and purer tones with the 225P series Orange Drops. I hear only a subtle difference between a $15 Vitamin Q and a $2 Sprague 225P! The Orange Drop 225P's are made from warmer sounding Mylar film. Orange Drop 715P and 716P caps are made from Polypropylene, which sounds harsher and more ceramic-like.

There are some sources for Paper In Oil caps on my Bass Resources page which appears in my signature. Look under the REPLACEMENT/UPGRADE BASS PARTS category just a little more than half way down the page. Also you can also find PIO caps on eBay from time to time, but they are are not cheap anywhere and their price will only escalate as the supply dries up.


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Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:27 pm
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Thanks for that great explanation! I've got the standard fender ceramic caps in there now, but now I might try to track down those Orange Drops.

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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:24 am
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I was thinking of switching from V/V/T to concentric pots also.....
Was there a huge difference in tone after you did yours?.... Was it worth the time & money?

I ready to pull the trigger on this project..... i'm just trying to get a "consensus" before doing so....

I bought some Lindy Fralin Split Coil JB PUPS (+5% overwound) and I haven't been able to get that vintage tone I'm looking for :shock: .... and I know it ain't the PUPS.... :?:

I know that Jaco's early tone was partially because of the concentric pots in his '62 JB....

I run an Eden WT550 into a Epifani PS210 with monster cables (for connections only) and no pedals.

I really want to know the outcome on your project :wink:

peace


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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:56 am
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jdawgy wrote:

I bought some Lindy Fralin Split Coil JB PUPS (+5% overwound) and I haven't been able to get that vintage tone I'm looking for :shock: .... and I know it ain't the PUPS.... :?:

I know that Jaco's early tone was partially because of the concentric pots in his '62 JB....

I run an Eden WT550 into a Epifani PS210 with monster cables (for connections only) and no pedals.

I really want to know the outcome on your project :wink:

peace


Hmmmm, were Jacos pickups 5% overwound?

I'm of the opinion that just because you can overwind pickups doesn't mean you should.

Overwinding yields higher output but emphasizes lows while reducing upper mids. Standard winding has better tonal balance but the output is not as hot. Underwinding gives you vastly improved upper mids, but the output level is lower than standard winding. Most modern amps have plenty of preamp boost therefore a hotter output isn't really beneficial.

When using overwound pickups you should not use the caps specified for standard winding. I'd use a lower value to let more highs through, like a 0.018 or 0.022 cap. Try that.

Also Lindy Fralin has a 30 day exchange policy for tonal reasons. If you are still in the 30 day exchange period, send them back if you don't like them and tell Mr. Fralin you want to sound like Jaco. He can make your pickups sound like Jaco's.


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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:29 pm
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Brother Dave,
I originally had the stock split coil JB pups.
They gave too much of a CLEAR sound for my ears so I called Lindy.

He recommended that I try the +5% overwounds.... he actually recommended them for the more lush jaco-esqe tones.

I just installed a .47 OD for the first time and it warmed it up BIG TIME...
Along with more understanding of the extensive Eden EQ... I would have to say that i'm EXTREMELY satisfied and feel very comfortable with the outcome.
:wink:
peace,
-J


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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:25 am
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jdawgy wrote:
Brother Dave,
I originally had the stock split coil JB pups.
They gave too much of a CLEAR sound for my ears so I called Lindy.

He recommended that I try the +5% overwounds.... he actually recommended them for the more lush jaco-esqe tones.

I just installed a .47 OD for the first time and it warmed it up BIG TIME...
Along with more understanding of the extensive Eden EQ... I would have to say that i'm EXTREMELY satisfied and feel very comfortable with the outcome.
:wink:
peace,
-J


Well if you are happy, I'm happy!


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Post subject: orange drop
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:39 pm
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I play a '62 reissue and wonder why anyone would like to convert his 3-knob JB to '62 concentric knobs. I like the three knob setup much more than mine.

Regarding the tone caps - I'd stick to the current production Orange Drops, they're available for cheap. Ceramics are a bit too harsh, they are usually not used in signal path in amps. All the hype about paper in oil is just a hype, otherwise every hi-end bass would have paper in oil caps (they don't).


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Post subject: Re: orange drop
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:47 pm
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engels wrote:
Regarding the tone caps - I'd stick to the current production Orange Drops, they're available for cheap. Ceramics are a bit too harsh, they are usually not used in signal path in amps. All the hype about paper in oil is just a hype, otherwise every hi-end bass would have paper in oil caps (they don't).


Paper in oil caps make a difference just as when you go from ceramic to poly (Sprague Orange Drop or about any other brand) makes a difference.

The only two cap designs I hear very little difference aurally between are the current production Sprague MYLAR Orange Drop 225P and the Vitamin-Q type paper in oil where the difference is so subtle it is hard to tell which is which. Most of the online parts dealers are selling the POLY 715P & 716P Orange drops. I would encourage you to seek out the MYLAR ones. They are boxy looking.

The Vitamin-Q's are smaller in diameter and have an inherently tighter tolerance factor which also makes them more desirable in guitar tone circuits. They are incredibly stable and totally leakproof, which gives them the advantage over the bakelite encased Sprague Bumblebees Gibson used which do tend to degrade and leak over decades.

Gibson did use paper in oil BUMBLEBEES in their high end instruments. I have Vitamin-Q's in all my passive basses which are by no means high end basses and one was actually put together from spare parts.

If I had a vintage bass I'd leave it stock.

Fender is currently using ceramics in their passive USA basses. Some people prefer the ceramic tone. I admit they sound edgy and warm and fuzzy.


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Post subject: Re: orange drop
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:51 pm
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brotherdave wrote:
Gibson did use paper in oil BUMBLEBEES in their high end instruments.


Today Gibson use no bumblebees. They were putting bumblebees at those times when BB's were the available caps and if you open any radio from the same year you will find bumblebees inside.


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Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:57 pm
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Gibson does use Bumblebee caps. They actually are a new production "recreation" and they are selling them as you can see here: http://store.gibson.com/Products/Pickups-and-Electronics/Capacitors/Historic-Spec-Bumble-Bee-Capacitors.aspx

Gibson is only using these Bumblebees in the "Historic Re-Issue" series.
Definitely way too expensive for me!

Also, in the 50's, Fender used paper in oil caps in basses and guitars as you can see in a 1956 P-Bass below. They stopped because they could save 25 or 50 cents a unit by using ceramic caps instead.

Image


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