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Post subject: The Quality Difference
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:50 pm
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So over the weekend I learned the meaning of "Bass Withdrawal". If you have a moment, allow me to muse...

I was playing my MIM Jazz Bass, when suddenly I hear massive fret buzz! I looked for the culprit and discovered that the nut broke (all of you who are thinking of making a joke or pun, its been said already). So after investigating my options, I trucked on over to GC to get it repaired. While I was there, I took the opportunity to conduct an experiment: I tried out all the $1,000 and above Fenders. People are always going on and on about how you don't need to spend a lot on a bass or its not the equipment, its the player, etc. As much as I want to buy into this line of thinking, I can't help but point out that if I buy a cheaper version of an expensive car, then that's what I have, and I will soon find out what was left out (I actually know this one from experience). I believe this to be true with Bass Guitars as well.

I played about 15 bass guitars of different price ranges. Then I came back 2 days later and played them again. What did I learn?

1. The feel of an instrument is probably more important than anything else. Regardless of price tag, you can't make a bass feel right. I sensed that my ability to "get in tune" with each instrument was more related to touch than tone. Some of the instruments I played sounded incredible, but I couldn't get past how they felt in my hand.

2. Quality parts = Quality Sound. For example, my MIM had a plastic nut. The MIA has a bone nut. Is it likely that a plastic nut will produce a sound that is sonically superior to a bone nut? Which leads to my point: buying a cheaper bass, then modding it generally will not produce a sonically superior bass. Correction: when a cheaper bass is modded to the point that it becomes superior to the top line brand, usually a new brand is created, because everyone wants a bass modded like (fill in the blank)

3. $400 bass do not sound as good or better than a $1,400 bass. I played several MIM then several MIA versions of Fenders and their was really no comparison. An accomplished player may be able to make an inexpensive bass sound great, but it is almost universally accepted that if you buy a cheaper bass, you should change the pickups and the bridge. I know that getting the cheaper bass then modding it may be more economical way to the instrument of your dreams. But let's look at it from this perspective: how many Bass Heroes play cheap basses that they modded? How many player have chosen to own and only play a stock Squire? If I have $1400 to spend will I make out better buying a cheap bass then modding than I could buying a $1400 bass?

4. I am completely biased when it comes to Fender products. In the midst of all this test driving, I realized that despite having another bass at home (Yamaha RBX 765A), I really missed not having my Fender J Bass, which is safely at home with a brand new custom cut BONE nut. :)

I hope the ramblings of one Fender Bass Madman provokes much conversation. I am weary of the endless threads that say "I took a piece of crap bass and turned it into a funk machine that sounds better than the top of the line Fender". I will start by saying, "I have a MIM Fender J Bass that has MIA Fender Pickups and a Bone Nut and I am very satisfied with the sound. I spent $500 on this setup, but if I had the funds, I would buy a 2008 MIA P Bass in a heartbeat." Who's next?


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Post subject: Re: The Quality Difference
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:33 pm
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Very nice write-up, particularly this little section. I agree with your points, especially #1.

Kevmove wrote:
1. The feel of an instrument is probably more important than anything else. Regardless of price tag, you can't make a bass feel right. I sensed that my ability to "get in tune" with each instrument was more related to touch than tone. Some of the instruments I played sounded incredible, but I couldn't get past how they felt in my hand.

2. Quality parts = Quality Sound. For example, my MIM had a plastic nut. The MIA has a bone nut. Is it likely that a plastic nut will produce a sound that is sonically superior to a bone nut? Which leads to my point: buying a cheaper bass, then modding it generally will not produce a sonically superior bass. Correction: when a cheaper bass is modded to the point that it becomes superior to the top line brand, usually a new brand is created, because everyone wants a bass modded like (fill in the blank)

3. $400 bass do not sound as good or better than a $1,400 bass. I played several MIM then several MIA versions of Fenders and their was really no comparison. An accomplished player may be able to make an inexpensive bass sound great, but it is almost universally accepted that if you buy a cheaper bass, you should change the pickups and the bridge. I know that getting the cheaper bass then modding it may be more economical way to the instrument of your dreams. But let's look at it from this perspective: how many Bass Heroes play cheap basses that they modded? How many player have chosen to own and only play a stock Squire? If I have $1400 to spend will I make out better buying a cheap bass then modding than I could buying a $1400 bass?

Furthermore, I do not care what others think or say about my bass choices. I pick them and play them for my enjoyment and satisfaction. One big thing for me is look. I gotta like the way the bass looks by itself and in my hands. JMO


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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:30 pm
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If I were a person with lots of money I'd get a custom shop bass built to my specifications ! But ........ I am a middle class citizen with wife , two kids , a mortgage , phone bills , grocery list , etc... and can only afford a (lets say a budget limit) of $800.00 bass . So , with that budget in mind I must try to get the best bass for that amount of money , and to do that I must embark(I dont know if thats the correct spelling-please forgive me) on a mission of testing each and every bass until I get what Im looking for for that amount of money.

A few years ago(13 to be exact) I bought a MIM bass for 250 bucks and a set of EMG's for 100 bucks and well adjusted for low action . And it sounded and played like a bass costing 3 or 4 times as much . My budget was limited to 300 bucks but I managed to get a nice sounding and playable instrument to the point that this bass only lasted a few weeks in my possesion because a friend of mine played it , fell in love with it and begged me to sell it to him and I did . I believe that you can get a decent bass (according to budget) and just modify it a little (pickups) and well adjusted to be a very playable instrument that inspires you to play .

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1996 50th Anniversary Jazz 5 (012 0f 500)
1997 '51 P Bass Reissue
2012 American Standard Precision V
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Post subject: Quality Difference
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:07 am
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Jlarocho, thanks for responding. I agree that through diligent research and determination, you can find a great sounding bass for an affordable price. However, bass on your argument, I would suggest you paid too much for your bass. You state that you spent about $300 to purchase and mod a bass. Adjusting by the 2007 inflation, you would have spent about $465.00 (which happens to be the cost of either a brand new MIM Fender or a Used MIM Fender with upgraded pickups) in our current economy. You also state that your bass SOUNDED like a bass that costs 3 time more. For this to be true, either the bass you put together closely emulates the sound of the more expensive bass or the more expensive bass uses the exact same parts as the cheaper one and the manufacturer just marked up the price (this is called tiered pricing). While the second outcome is not a far fetched as some would believe, lets go with "it sounds like" option. If you want a certain sound for the least cost, then I would suggest that gettting a used MIM Fender and a Pandora XL4D is a cheaper and more versatile option.

That being said, after selling your bass, what did you replace it with?


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:56 am
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Another Fender , of course ! :D

You really think that I paid too much for that new MIM jazz with active EMG's ? Remember that was 13 years ago and at that time I believe mexican basses were not at the same quality level today MIM basses are . And I did all the mods myself !

What is the cost of a new MIM jazz with active electronics today ? 13 years ago a Fender with active electronics oem was more than 500 dollars If Im not mistaken .


Interesting discussion ! That was some analysis you made ! 8)

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1996 50th Anniversary Jazz 5 (012 0f 500)
1997 '51 P Bass Reissue
2012 American Standard Precision V
2013 Squier Vintage Modified Jazz Fretless


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Post subject: Quality cont'd
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:44 am
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Jlar ocho
Yeah, I thought about the what you paid 13 years ago, which is why I adjusted for inflation. I also thought about residual value, and it is generally held that MIM instruments don't hold their value, let alone increase in value. Which I think makes for an outstanding argument for buying the more expensive MIA. Now if you have no intention of ever parting with your bass and taken the step to lovingly upgrade components to get it to feel and play just right, then for you, it was worth every penny! You really can't put a dollar amount on that experience and connection that occur between the artist and his instrument. This is akin to what some feel when they restore a car. However, I can across an interesting article that said you can make more money buying an instrument, stripping to its component parts, then selling them separately! Why? Because of two groups of people, those looking to restore and instrument and those looking to upgrade.

Case in point: I purchased a MIM Fender w/Ash body . After having it for awhile, I noticed that contrary to most MIM Fenders, the hole for the bridge pickup was wider than the whole for neck pickup. This intrigued me, because I had heard the problems with the MIM's NOT being able to accept a regular set of jazz pickups without having to enlarge the bridge hole. What I believe I discovered is that the special run of MIM Jazz basses made for Guitar Center resulted in a body that had normal sized neck and bridge pickups. This was confirmed when I got a set of MIA Jazz pickups and they fit perfectly! (If I am incorrect in believing that MIM Jazz Basses use 2 neck pickups of the same size, please let me know. The ones I removed were the same size).

Now, I believe I have a better sounding instrument. I would not say it now sounds as good as an MIA Bass, even though someone listening may think so. however, could I really say that from a component standpoint, my MIM Jazz w/ American pickups is qualitatively the same as the MIA Jazz Bass. Not really, because there are still so many other parts that affect the sound that are qualitatively different. The bridges are different. The pots are different. The quality of the frets and their installation are different. The fit of every component is different. The materials used to line the routing is different.

To make my point, go to a luxury car dealership has both the top of the line car to the lower end car in stock. Then open and close the doors, once while standing outside, then again from the inside. Could you tell the difference? Absolutely! While the lower end car probably sounded good closing, the expensive car sounded like they were closing you into a hermetically sealed cabin, with perfect acoustics.

Yes, I agree that at the end of the day, how the instruments sounds to you is all that really matters. But we must admit that their is a limit to making a $400 instrument sound like a $1500 instrument. At some point their is a qualitative difference that makes the more expensive instruments worth the expense. Sure, my Chevy S-10 is a nice ride and I could upgrade all its part to make it really impressive. But that doesn't make it as valuable as the top of the line Chevy truck. Even though I really like my truck, just like I really like my bass.


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:41 pm
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Although in theory all your points are sound I find that price is a very poor way of determining an instrument's quality, whether that be tone, feel, sound whatever.

Also I challenge you to do a blind test on the bone/plastic nut and tell me which one is which. ;)

For me, the greatest difference is usually pickups and build quality between cheap basses and expensive ones.

However, now even those lines are being blurred, just look at what squier are coming out with these days!


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:33 pm
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I don't disagree with this thread, but I will say that I own and play both high end basses (Custom Shop, etc.) and low end (Squier, etc.) and I enjoy both. The low end aren't my main instruments but I enjoy playing and even gigging with them. Modern manufacturing enables "cheap" production instruments to rival the more expensive instruments in many ways. Look at what nice stuff Squier puts out these days for under $300. For those on a tight budget they're a great option. But if you can afford the high end basses, there's no denying they are better.


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:36 pm
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This thread could be a job for the Mythbusters to test!

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2012 American Standard Precision V
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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:37 pm
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It is somewhat true that price is not always a sound way of determining quality. The question is under what conditions does price become irrelevant? Well there are a couple of possibilities:

An experienced bassist picks a quality instrument. In this case, someone who knows how each component works together goes in search of a well made instrument. This persons expertise (and skill) should make it likely that he/she could find a stock introductory bass that just happened to be well made with decent parts. In this case price is irrelevant.

An inexperienced bassist is aided by someone who is experienced. Price is irrelevant in this case as well.

A bassist of average skill goes on a quest, searching for the bass that is a match made in heaven. They find this bass with all the features they dreamed of at the perfect price - what they could afford.

I'm sure many people fall into one of these categories. However, I think there are far more people who rely companies (like Fender) to honor their commitment to make the best instruments possible. Because of this trust, they are willing to spend a little more, with the expectation that they are buying the best instrument one can get for that price range. I happen to believe that in most cases, if I am careful, if I spend $1,000, not only will I get an instrument that sounds like it cost $1,000, but is worth $1,000.

I read stories everyday of how someone took a cheap bass, tricked it out, and now it sounds like a bass that costs 3 times more. But I have never heard a story of someone taking a cheap bass, tricking it out, then selling it for 3 times what they paid. Anyone want to share the details of such an event? Cause experience tells me that unless the buyer is clueless (which is possible), they are going to say "are you crazy? All you did was take a Squire and change the pickups and bridge and you want me to pay what? :lol:


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Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:39 pm
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Jlarocho, that would be awesome! Or maybe they could do a challenge to build the best bass from a pile of parts, ala junkyard wars!


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Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:06 pm
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But I still think that if you have a MIM bass in its oem state and a MIA bass in its oem state .And have them both adjusted the same way . And connected to same amps and eqd the same you can hear the little difference in sound because of what you said concerning the materials used , in playability Im sure they could be the same . But I think that if you install MIA pickups to the MIM bass and tested under the same conditions and with your eyes closed you can be fooled . I believe there can be sonic differences but I dont think that they could be that much noticeable . I do understand the point of resale value and I agree with you on that . Let me tell you that if I had the money Id buy a custom shop bass over a MIM bass . Its the little details that set them apart . But I do know because of experience that I can get a well adjusted MIM bass and upgrade the pickups only and get a bass almost equal or equal in sonic quality to the MIA bass . Of course It wont have the same appeal as the MIA bass or resale value .

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1996 50th Anniversary Jazz 5 (012 0f 500)
1997 '51 P Bass Reissue
2012 American Standard Precision V
2013 Squier Vintage Modified Jazz Fretless


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:10 pm
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Kevmove wrote:
Jlarocho, that would be awesome! Or maybe they could do a challenge to build the best bass from a pile of parts, ala junkyard wars!


Wow! I remember that show . I never missed it !

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1996 50th Anniversary Jazz 5 (012 0f 500)
1997 '51 P Bass Reissue
2012 American Standard Precision V
2013 Squier Vintage Modified Jazz Fretless


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Post subject:
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:55 pm
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I'd put my "Crafted In Japan" Geddy against anything of equal value that was made in America. I think I'd win.

Test,

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Post subject:
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:55 pm
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I agree !

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2012 American Standard Precision V
2013 Squier Vintage Modified Jazz Fretless


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